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The original was posted on /r/thedeprogram by /u/pickleddcherries on 2024-11-07 20:24:21+00:00.

I recently responded to another feminist post on this sub that talked about the 4b movement, patted a comrade on the back, and continued along. Then I realized that some leftists actually shit on the 4b movement and I faceplanted

Am I personally a proponent of the 4b movement? I think it lacks widespread class consciousness and so although I’m not a proponent of it myself, do I shit on the movement as a whole / the women behind it? No.

I have written numerous pieces on Marxist feminism, please do not mansplain away in the comments about how feminism doesn’t have a place in Marxism and it absolutely does and the only people who say that haven’t learned the true position of patriarchy in Bourgeois society. But case in point, if you’re so offended at women practicing celibacy by purely personal choice, look at yourself in the mirror because that is their right to bodily autonomy.

The main issue with 4b is that it’s not based in class consciousness and not that well organized, but I need yall to understand the context of this movement. South Korea (where it originated from and where I’m from) frowns upon feminists greatly, and considering the history of Korea’s colonization by the US, having a widespread class-conscious feminist movement would be very difficult, and the 4b movement is women feeling like they have absolutely no control in an extremely anti-communist, patriarchal society, and taking control of the one thing they do have control over, their bodily and sexual autonomy. If you’re more so offended at the women who feel taken advantage of and feel that complete celibacy is the only way to protect themselves, then take a really long look in the mirror, because it is so damn odd you would wipe that away as “liberalism.”

Women are consistently scared from many Marxist circles, most of the women I know personally who aren’t radicalized say they’re wary of Marxist circles because of past experiences where issues about women’s rights and patriarchy are sidelined, or they get talked down on. That’s a large part of why, especially in the Global North and its peripheries such as the ROK, there is no massive, well-organized, class-conscious feminist movement (not minimizing women’s role in the struggle, we’ve always been here and helped in unimaginable ways, but dedicated feminist circles based in class consciousness and well-organized movements sprouting from it are rare).

Also please for the love of god do not say something along the lines of how me (or any other female comrade) “aren’t like the other girls!” Even if you don’t say that verbatim, don’t praise us for being Marxists over 4b proponents because we’re not like other girls, don’t tell me that you’re glad I talk about “real issues” and not all that boy talk drama. I am happy to be like other women and I understand why women become 4b activists, why some women feel too scared to approach radicalization. I am a Marxist and I am a girl, I do talk about boys (and girls… raging bisexual here) and other “girly drama” and I talk about theory and agitation and organization. Don’t keep separating Marxist circles from women, we are entitled to a place here not because we’ve earned it through “getting on the man’s level” but because we are proud women and proud Marxists.

Also to other women who peddle this narrative (of hating on 4b women and calling them femlibs) please stop too. Just because you have either had a different course in life or a more privileged life to not have had to come to these decisions, that doesn’t apply to all women. I’ve had periods of life where I used to adhere to what are basically the 4b movement’s principles, no sex with men, no dating men, no romance with men, etc and the reason for that was because of constantly being in a cycle of sexual abuse and domestic violence for so long I was desperate in my feeling of lack of control and spiraling in the patriarchal society, I couldn’t use my “super cool ML class-conscious powers” to protect me from a more deep-rooted issue of how girls who are abused in childhood grow up to be to stuck in perpetual cycles of abuse in their relationships with men. To the men out there, if you believe women are also human and thus can also have sexual and romantic desire and crave it, then ask yourself what kind of position would bring a women to complete celibacy (outside other personal/medical/religious reasons). What must a woman endure in this society?

And if you’re a girl peddling this same narrative, ask yourself what if I lived an even less privileged life as a woman, or what if I came from a different cultural background? Empathy people, empathy.

Stop shitting on women who feel like their only option to protect themselves in a patriarchal world is through celibacy and start asking yourselves why so many women are scared off from leftist circles.